Iconofile: Icons and Sacred Art
Iconofile: Icons and Sacred Art Iconofile: Icons and Sacred Art
   
 
Iconofile Forum


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Iconofile Forum   » Art and Theology   » The Forerunner with Wings? (Page 2)

 - Send-to-a-Friend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Author Topic: The Forerunner with Wings?
John_Curran
Member
Member # 5464

Icon 1 posted      Profile for John_Curran     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Upon reflection, daniel, your work may indeed have been inspired, so I withdraw the remark--- which was in any case a reference to your own comment about a certain respected iconographer's work being cartoonish.
Posts: 66 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
daniel
Member
Member # 190

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daniel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
John Curran, you are "outside the box" of civil discourse, insulting my poor efforts.

My questions have been cogent, and all I get is appeals to authority. Whose, precisely? Tom and Jill are, like me, lay folk trying to understand and study. If we draw different conclusions that is all; it does not make me obstinate if I am unconvinced by them, and none of the images I defend are not used by many Orthodox iconographers.

I will limit my posts to questions on technique.

--------------------
daniel

Posts: 200 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
John_Curran
Member
Member # 5464

Icon 1 posted      Profile for John_Curran     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Daniel, I would find it easier to understand your points of view, if you were even consistant, which you are not; your ideas are not clearly defined, yet you seem inflexible. I feel you have closed your mind to making any attempts to understanding the postings of others--- surely you cannot be reading what they have written with any thoughtfulness and care, or respect. I've seen your icons, and they are indeed 'outside the box', as well as somewhat cartoonish. I came here to learn, but too often the new posts are your same tired arguments.
Posts: 66 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Tom
Member
Member # 16

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well this gets us no where quickly and since this is the lenten season and I shouldn't be engaging in such spirited discussions please forgive me all of you for arguing.

I will continue to monitor. Please keep things civil and appropriate.

--------------------
Tom

Posts: 428 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
daniel
Member
Member # 190

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daniel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, Tom, I do not "reject any authority". Indeed, whatever you and Jill think, I began with an openness to what you had to say. I simply do not find it convincing.
As for your claim that I "venture outside the box", as evidenced by my website, the only icons I have done that you and Jill object to- St John with wings, St Joseph with the Child, and the Divine Mercy- are icons also done by Orthodox iconographers in good standing with their bishops, and who have been commissioned by Orthodox churches. Orthodox iconographers Aiden Hart and David Mastroberte have done the Divine Mercy, as well as post-schism Roman Catholic saints. Fr Luke Dingman and others have done St Joseph holding the Child, and Orthodox iconographers too numerous to mention have painted St John as the Angel of the Desert. If I am outside any box, it is yours and Jill's, and I am in good company.
And some of us consider the truth worthwhile and positive.

--------------------
daniel

Posts: 200 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tom
Member
Member # 16

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What's the point of your arguments Daniel?

You don't agree, got it. So what? You rarely concede as evidenced in previous posts and reject any authority. Don't look for consistency in Orthodoxy, the point of the last post. It does not exist.

You can argue with Jill all you want but she is the authority just by her education and her arguments are much more compelling and she represents a solid Orthodox perspective.

From your website it looks like you venture outside the box so what do you care about this for?

Say something worthwhile and remotely postive.

[ 25. March 2009, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Tom ]

--------------------
Tom

Posts: 428 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
daniel
Member
Member # 190

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daniel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am certainly not one of those who believes "anything goes", and have devoted a lot of words to exposing those who misuse iconographic technique for their own ends. On the other hand, I expect some argument about particular depictions to be internally consistent, and I'm afraid that yours consistently are not. When the oldest Orthodox monastery in the world has a depiction of St John as the "angel of the desert" on its iconostasis, and he is so depicted by Orthodox iconograpers aroud the world,when iconography depicts a wealth of symbolic detail, and you say all of this is "Not Orthodox", I can only believe that this is your pious opinion, not something that is universally held. Sorry.

--------------------
daniel

Posts: 200 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tom
Member
Member # 16

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Truely.

The hardest part about this whole process is sorting out all the details and finding none, really. Immersion in the faith and reading the Holy Fathers you can come to an understanding and peace with these idiosyncrasies in depictions of icons. A lot folks dropped off these posts because they could not fathom, in this post modern world of "anything goes", that there are restrictions and boundaries. Some written, some oral tradition, some are simply intuitive. A lot of those folks just could not separate their emotional attachment to some images.

If you are looking for hard and fast rules for anything that is Orthodox in nature, you have picked the wrong faith. The rule is....there are no rules. Intuition, faith, tradition, the Holy Fathers of Orthodoxy.

While some of us observe everyday occurances in the church as fact, there are others who will constantly challenge those occurances. My priest is famous for saying "Show me where that is written". So...in my church, things happen that I have not seen or agree with in all my years as an Orthodox Christian.

I guess that's why they call it faith.

--------------------
Tom

Posts: 428 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jill
Member
Member # 355

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Jill     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by daniel:
Where is documentation on the impropriety of depicting St John with (symbolic) wings?
I am not looking for argument for the sake of argument; I am seeking truth, and want more than the insistence that something is authoritative without documentation.

My dear Daniel, your insistence on "documentation" for every iconographic possibility is contrary to the workings of Orthodox tradition. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. To insist on documentation for every detail smacks of a sola scriptura approach. The "documentation" an iconographer uses is the life of the saint, the scriptural references (if they exist), and, perhaps most importantly, the liturgical material associated with that saint, as the liturgical material represents the consensus patrum of the Orthodox Church.

Do I really need to repeat these points to you? If you could not accept the impropriety of painting an icon of St Joseph the Betrothed holding the Christ-child, despite my providing abundant scriptural, liturgical and theological material to back my case, then I can't see how anything I do or say regarding wings on the Forerunner will make any difference to you.

I repeat part of an earlier post:

quote:
If it were permissible to show St John with wings, then just about all monastic saints, these "earthly angels", as well as the OT prophets, who were also holy messengers, could also be shown winged. Yet this has never happened, and neither should it happen. A winged Baptist is an honest and pious mistake, but it is still an error.


[ 25. March 2009, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: Jill ]

Posts: 182 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
John_Curran
Member
Member # 5464

Icon 1 posted      Profile for John_Curran     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Daniel, depicting the human John the Baptist with the wings of an angelic messenger is self-evidently an error.
Posts: 66 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
macrina
Member
Member # 235

Icon 1 posted      Profile for macrina     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It isn't wrong. Read Cavarnos' chapter on depictions of the Forerunner. A later depiction, but very much accepted. I am suprised to occasionally find older types with wings as well.
Posts: 59 | From: boston,MA | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
daniel
Member
Member # 190

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daniel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To revive this discussion, while I found your opinion about St John with wings cogent, I was browsing in a book about St Catherine's Monastery in the Sinai, and noted that the iconostasis in the monastery church has a winged St John the Forerunner. How can this not be Orthodox? And the image is near universal in Orthodox churches of every jurisdiction. I know, I know, so is God the Father in the so-called New Testament Trinity, but the ban on that image seems much more authoritative. Where is documentation on the impropriety of depicting St John with (symbolic) wings?
I am not looking for argument for the sake of argument; I am seeking truth, and want more than the insistence that something is authoritative without documentation.

--------------------
daniel

Posts: 200 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tom
Member
Member # 16

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sorry. I hoped it would not go there again. Stop before it does.

--------------------
Tom

Posts: 428 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
daniel
Member
Member # 190

Icon 1 posted      Profile for daniel   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jill- What you say is true, but it must be admitted as well that there are also things which fall under "Orthodox opinion", where there are differing opinions among Orthodox iconographers and thinkers.
I think of our conversation about St Joseph, where it was stated that only the Virgin can be depicted holding or touching Christ. I pointed out that in icons of St Simeon he is shown holding Christ, as are the nursemaids in the Nativity icon. And I mentioned an icon of St Christopher carrying Christ. It was said that this icon was not Orthodox, but I got it at the website of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese! And respected Orthodox iconographers, like Fr Luke Dingman, have done St Joseph holding Christ. Those who would insist that there is only one Orthodox opinion on such things remind me of the guy with whom I was discussing some disputed point or other and he said that a certain opinion was "not Orthodox". I responded that it was held by the Ecumenical Patriarch. He then told me that the EP is "not Orthodox"!

But don't worry, we have lots of Catholics who are more Catholic than the Pope.

Posts: 200 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tom
Member
Member # 16

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ha...I knew that would get a conversation going.

--------------------
Tom

Posts: 428 | From: Omaha, NE | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged



This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

© 2003-2015 Iconofile. All rights to the postings in this forum become that of Iconofile.

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0